Pistols and swords at dawn

A back and forth with Steve Douglar from The Logo Factory, comments from the edge ...

Jeff, while I think it's just lovely that we're all getting along and stuff, please spare me the LW press releases.

And do you honestly believe that LW was the first design company to offer design services solely through the Internet?

The answer is no.

In fact, I'll go one step further and opine that not only was LW a 'late-starter' (what - 2000 or so?) but that you actively 'borrowed' the business models of other internet design companies that had been around for years before you.

While I'll admit your back-end freelance system is unique, your front end is simply an amalgamation of many companies that had already formulated/hashed out the model. (Or are you laying claim to that as well?)

And if I could ask one question of you, it is this.

Why do you not mention on your web site that your client's projects are handled by a 'network of freelance designers'? In fact, nowhere on your site can I find any mention of the fact that designers for LW are freelancers, rather than in-house designers.

Statements like - "There are many sites out there that claim to do logo design. Most are simply a designer or two that do work on the side. LogoWorks is a company built around corporate logo design."

And

"Internet-based Logo Designers - Often a front for a single, home-based designer, (ironic, since this is the very same people that are delivering your services to your clients) they'll charge a few hundred dollars, but you get what you pay for. ('You get what you pay for'? Also ironic, because you're paying these very same people $20 - $50 for concepts).

In certain instances, you're openly hostile to FREELANCE designers (ironic, considering this is the core of your business model and design delivery)

For example -

"Freelance Designers - A friend of a friend can create your logo. If they charge by the hour, this can get very expensive. And there's no quality guarantee."

Here's how you refer to your network of freelance designers - "You'll have access to our team of more than 200 experienced designers to create your logo."

All these quotes can be found here - Logoworks compares themselves to other 'logo design options'

Seems odd to me that if you are so proud of your backend business model (ie: a network of freelancers) that you make no mention of it on your web site at all and are arguably hostile to 'freelancers' in general. Don't you think that your *unique* system of artwork - a network of freelancers - is an important issue to would be clients? Say, the fact that they will have no contact with the designer(s) of their logo at all?

In fact, it could be argued that you dodge this very subject on your web site, so that your clients have no idea that their business details are being scattered around the globe to people that *you state* aren't even employees of Logo Works (when dodging the other bullet about design 'influences').

Just asking is all.

quote: First of all, a lot of our copy on the website needs to be rewritten. It is 4 years old in some cases and created long before I joined the company. [PR hack snippage] I plan to get to it when things slow down in December, maybe on Christmas day.

So firstly you're so big that it's possible that some of your logos are not original - I think the quote goes something like this:

"with over 300 designers and over 30,000 completed projects it is possible that a designer uploaded something that was not original that we are unaware of."

Now, you're too big and busy to have accurate copy on your web site? I'm starting to think that your model of delivering logo design is not as pristine as you would have others believe. And worrying about some 'old copy' on your web site? Ahm, Jeff that copy is live right now. That's the web site that the WSJ and other magazines are promoting. I don't remember once reading "pay no attention to the web site copy - it's old".

Perhaps you need to offer disclaimers - we're too busy to have accurate copy on our web site and we're too big to insure that 'every' logo produced here is original. That would be very cool (and truthful too).

Thanks for the lesson in marketing BTW - but I could argue that admitting the two things above is not so swift for a top-notch marketing guy like yourself.

quote: I think our work and our process is better than other on line design services including yours.

And I think our work is superior to yours. In fact, I'll put my humble little design shop up against your mega-design-sooper-dooper company any day of the week. Not sure what that proves (other than nyah, nyah). But then again, I'm familiar with your organization's opinion about my little organization. But you remember that 'opinion' don't you Jeff? If not - let's take a trip down memory lane:

Yes, Jeff - two of our other logos found their way into your 'database' and were used without permission. Ask Morgan about it. I'm sure he has all the e-mails. I know I have.

quote: To answer your specific question, we don't talk about freelancers on our website for two reasons. One, [Self-indulgent blather snippage]

I know exactly why you don't tell your clients that your designers are freelance Jeff. I was actually using my post to point out things I already knew (that's why the bold and stuff. See Jeff - Bold's the *important* stuff).

quote: Next, I don't care who was first in Internet logo design. You can be if you want. Just write it on your website. You won't sell more logos. I don't claim to be first because we weren't but also because first doesn't matter...

Dude, do you even *read* your own press releases? Articles? Forum Posts? Or are you too big-and-bad for that too? You spend your entire life blathering on about how you're the biggest, first, revolutionary, etc. You live in a 'my d is bigger than yours' world, so don't start playing coy now. Besides, read your earlier post. That's exactly what you where saying.

quote: That said, I've personally bought logos from LogoFactory multiple times. I took screen shots of every page, every logo. I analyzed and studied them. I called in with problems to test the service and escalation procedures, I called many times to get a sense of call in response. I tried to learn everything I could about what you do well and what you suck at.

That's funny. You keep telling everybody that you have no idea where these logos come from, and you're far too busy to pay attention to all the stuff that goes on, yet you spend a lot of time, screenshotting my humble site and all the logos in our portfolio. I guess I'm flattered.

But don't get me wrong. I certainly appreciate the business. But it's The Logo Factory. Did you order the projects in your own name? (I'd love to pull the files and see what an asshat you were to the designer attempting to work - in good faith with you - as you called in with problems to 'test' our system) Or did you use a bogus name, fake company and fake contact info (Side comment - my wife thinks you are a total weasel. Guess you're gonna have to sue her too).

And BTW - I've done my own research on your company too (though, to be honest, your aspirations of taking over the world are way too lofty for me). So, whenever (let's see how we put this) a logo that 'appears' that could be 'influenced' by our work shows up on your system, we know where and when (you should note this for future edification). You told me yesterday - "I won't be able to tell you how one of your projects got on instalogo until I know what project it was."

Well, it could be argued that this logo on InstaLogo

Looks remarkably like THIS Logo, designed by my humble shop back in 2000 - unless this is one of the bogus projects you submitted to my studio? Now, I realize you removed the Meridian logo a few nights ago (you must have seen it at one of the blogs you're too busy to spend any time at). BTW - there are a few more. Not necessarily ripped off, but certainly 'influenced by'.

quote: Back to your last question. You could argue that we dodge the subject of freelance designers. Sure. However, I can tell you that what small business owners want is someone that understands their business, answers the phone every time they call and knows their name when they do. Generally they don't care about talking to a designer, just someone who cares about and understands their business. On top of that, most of our designers don't want to talk on the phone. They want to put their headphones on and work on the new Apple Cinema monitors and G5s we just bought for them and create cool stuff. W

Ooooooh - G5s and stuff. That's cool. All my designers have this stuff too. Do you supply the G5s and software to your freelance designers as well, cause that would be really nice. At least that way, they wouldn't have hardware and software expenses to deal with when doing work for your fine company.

BTW - I know why you dodge the 'freelance' tag. (That's the bold part in my post). And why now you're injecting this legion of in-house designers into the debate. And BTW - Logo Works refugees always ask the same thing - "can I talk to my designer this time?".

quote: The only other way to do it would be using automation or technology like logoyes does.

I find it fascinating that you mention automated technology of LogoYes, while you have two 'logo generators' - InstaLogo being one of them, that are practically identical in the automation aspect. What bullet you dodging there? I mean, there's another glorious SEO opportunity.

Dude - grow as big as you want. Hire as many frikkin' designers as you want. But do not expect to be embraced by the design community, when your attitude is nothing but downright hostile. You see, it appears that you view designers as a commodity. Others view design as a community. Not LogoWork's community. Everybody's community. But you see, you wouldn't understand that. You're a marketing hack. On one hand - a pretty good one. But if I was to only use your posts around here as evidence - a frikkin' awful one. Positive PR is easy. It's dealing with the Bad PR that's tough.

Remember you said you knew what I "sucked at"? Right back atcha...

quote: Originally posted by tsheet The last project I did at your site was for a company I work with called Racerubber.com. I'm sure other people in our company have done projects too. My name should be in there. Why would I use a false name? You just don't get the whole honesty thing.

Jeff - it seems somewhat ironic that you are claiming that I don't "get the whole honesty thing", while you're discussing submitting arguably 'bogus' projects to my company to 'test my systems'.

And for those interested, you submitted a project, gave us a minimal amount of information to go by, and when we asked for more (to serve the project better), you disappeared from whence you came and all communication stopped. Our administrator attempted to contact you several times to no avail. The project was accordingly shelved (work produced remains our copyright). The job brief, from last summer, contains your personal details, so I'll save you from it being posted on a public forum (and, more importantly, as a 'client' of TLF, I have already given you my corporate word that I won't use your details/project info for anything other than the job itself). However, one project is quite different than 'multiple' - as you claimed earlier. You also used a HotMail account so spare me the 'honesty' crack.

And for the record (important disclaimer coming up) the logo that now resides on RaceRubber.com is not one of ours. I repeat - The Logo Factory had nothing to do with any 'artwork' on RaceRubber.com. I don't know if LW are the designers behind it or not and quite frankly, it's irrelevant. It is not *our* work and I certainly don't want the credit for it (end of important disclaimer). Are they a client of yours? And if so, not sure they'd be cool with us bringing them into a very public skirmish. I won't pass comment about the designs on the site, or post whatever work that we did for comparison, as once again, they are (if I understand you correctly) an innocent party.

I appreciate the kind words about my studio and my business. I've spent years building it up to the point were it can sustain full-time in-house designers at decent wages, benefits, working conditions while still attempting to work with small/mid-sized businesses as closely and hands-on as we can. And worry not Jeff, we are not your competition. (self-promotional blather coming up) I run a small/mid size design studio that focuses on working closely with clients, hand-holding many of them through what can be a first-time intimidating process. I've also found that clients *do* want to talk to designers, so we attempt to cater to that need as well as part of our business model. Are we perfect? Far from it. But we try. (end of self-promotional blather).

You go take over the world, Jeff. We'll just plod along doing what we've been doing for ten years. But I will ask you this - please don't use my material without permission. And please stop using artwork that is clearly 'influenced' by works in our portfolio as template logos in any of your logo generators.

And for the love of Gawd, stop playing 'secret agent man', submitting projects to my company in order to feel us out. Pick up the phone and give me a call. I would be delighted to discuss design issues with you. I'd be happy to tell you exactly how my studio operates. I have nothing to hide, and in fact, try my best to let clients and designers alike know what it's like at The Factory.

FYI - Laurie was the designer that tried to work with you on the Race Rubber project. At least I was finally able to explain to her why one of her clients went AWOL without explanation. She was actually quite upset at the time and like the typical designer, wondered what *she* had done wrong.

FWIW - I did not criticize you for making claims that LW is the biggest (I think there's no argument there). I merely mentioned that it's disingenuous for you to play coy about these claims after you've spent so much time making them. Also, perhaps I do owe you an apology about my comment about your PR skills. As I have opined on many boards and on many threads (I spend w-a-a-a-y too much time on them) I think that some of LW's PR (your handiwork?) has been nothing short of brilliant. In fact, I have stated publically, and often, that you deserve kudos for it.

I do think your handling of this current brushfire has been less than evenhanded and reflective of your earlier efforts.

OTHO - Perhaps I did let our forum 'banter' get a little personal. I've attempted to stay away from personal attacks (or comments about issues that I do not have first hand knowledge about) so if I lapsed in this case, and in regards to you, I apologize.

And yes, Mrs Dougler *can* spot a weasel on an internet forum. And in many other avenues. She's a pretty smart lady. That's one of the many reasons I married her a few weeks ago.

You'd best be wary about criticizing her, because that would lead to "pistols and swords at dawn". And lest you wish to sue me for uttering some form of death threat, let me point out, in the most legally weaselly words possible, that I am joking...

Summary

Pistols and swords at dawn